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Circumcision - 33,333% of your RDI of Sebby
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vorpal
vorpal
Sebastian (塞巴斯蒂安) / 饒漢文
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 03:47 pm
Circumcision

Should parents be allowed to circumcise their sons?
If you had a son, would you have him circumcised? If so, why?
Discuss.

Moi:
I'm strongly opposed to infant circumcision to the point where I think it should be made illegal unless medically necessary. I expect that you wouldn't be allowed to put a big honking tattoo on your child's face (although I might be wrong), so why should you be allowed to surgically, permanently, and unnecessarily remove part of a baby?

Obviously, if I had a son, he'd be intact. I also don't buy the religious crap: mutilating a child in the name of religion is something to which I'm opposed. I think, instead, when a child reaches the age of 18, he should then make his own decision regarding circumcision. If, at that point, he's committed to his religion, by all means, go for it, and at that point, it would certainly have a lot more religious significance attached to it: if you're willing to undergo that much pain and discomfort for the name of your religion, clearly you are admirably serious about it.

Just say NO to chopping babies kthxbai.

66CommentReplyShare

brokn2pieces
brokn2pieces
Stop singing, start swinging
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 07:51 pm (UTC)

i wouldn't have mine cut


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vorpal
vorpal
Sebastian (塞巴斯蒂安) / 饒漢文
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 08:53 pm (UTC)

LOL! Nice icon!


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jayessence
jayessence
JayEssence
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 07:52 pm (UTC)

Be allowed? - no
If I had a son... no!!

I've done enough reading that this whole thing with circumcision is barbaric. I am jealous of guys that are still fully intact.


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symbioid
symbioid
Радуга Сталина
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 08:27 pm (UTC)

Flaunts my uncut cock :P


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invisibelle
invisibelle
invisibelle
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 08:28 pm (UTC)

I hate getting into arguments with people about this... at least in the US people are so irrational about it. Suffice it to say, if I have a son, he will not be circumcised unless he chooses to do so as an adult.

I agree with the religious thing too, but again that's a big bunch of irrationality waiting to happen. What bothers me most is people that just do it without even having the religion excuse.


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vorpal
vorpal
Sebastian (塞巴斯蒂安) / 饒漢文
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 09:00 pm (UTC)

You'll get no argument from me! I agree with you 100%, m'dear!


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kishenehn
kishenehn
mark
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 08:30 pm (UTC)

Religious excuses or no, infant circumcision is child abuse. Period.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have an urge to go play with my foreskin. ;-)


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vorpal
vorpal
Sebastian (塞巴斯蒂安) / 饒漢文
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 08:57 pm (UTC)

Foreskin ownership for the win! I used to actually be able to have an orgasm through only playing with my foreskin!


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nangijala
nangijala
The lion's roar
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 09:18 pm (UTC)

- No
- No fucking way


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vorpal
vorpal
Sebastian (塞巴斯蒂安) / 饒漢文
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 09:32 pm (UTC)

*high five*


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gangrel_pri
gangrel_pri
James
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 09:49 pm (UTC)

I asked a similar question a while back and it started quite a debate. Based on anecdotal evidence, looks like the US doesn't mind near as much as folks not from the US.


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invisibelle
invisibelle
invisibelle
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 05:24 am (UTC)

I was 18 before I was finally relieved of my ignorance that it wasn't done all over the world. It's laughable to me now to imagine, but at the time, it blew my mind.

I wouldn't be surprised if a large percentage of Americans never discover that particular tidbit of information.


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inaglassbox
inaglassbox
Undercover Anti-Christ
Tue, May. 4th, 2010 11:37 pm (UTC)

Definitely not. It makes me angry to be circumcised since I'm not Jewish and I don't even think my parents chose for it to be done.


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ataventure
ataventure
Allison
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 12:03 am (UTC)

As a woman, I really have no idea. I've read that as an adult male, having a circumcision is bordering on self-abuse and horribly horribly painful, while, as a youngster, you're unlikely to remember such things (like how I don't remember that when I was 3, I ran into a brick wall with my face but I still have the scar to prove that it happened).

If I have a son, I will let whomever is providing the sperm (if I marry a man: the man, if I ask my BFF Steve to provide the sperm, then him) decide. I don't feel like, as a girl, I really have the frame of reference to decide the fate of my kid's penis.

Maybe this is a cop-out answer. I don't know.


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woekitten
woekitten
Dance Floor Exhaustion
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 12:18 am (UTC)

I believe there's no easy answer, especially if you come from a Jewish family. My father's family is Jewish, so my brothers and male cousins are all circumcised. Their sex lives are fine (though they don't go into great detail), and they all live normal lives. My husband (not Jewish) is circumcised. He performs fine, he's well-adjusted, and he doesn't remember the procedure (I was curious. I asked. XD)

I have heard tell that Jewish/Muslim circumcisions are generally less stressful on an infant because the mohel (and Islamic equivalent?) performs the procedure far more often than a regular doctor, and the infant is held by an honoured relative instead of being restrained.

The reason I say there's no easy answer is because on paper, it's easy to say "fuck religion." But in Judaism, male circumcision is just one of those things that gets done, regardless of how religious you are/aren't. I know it sounds abhorrent to anyone who didn't grow up in a household where the practise happens regularly, but my parents have been very supportive of my choices in life. I wouldn't be disowned for not circumcising my male child or anything overly dramatic, but it would be a huge disappointment to my dad, who's never asked me for very much.

tl;dr: I'm on the fence, but the answer isn't always cut and dried, so to speak. I don't have any kids, anyway. XD


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jayessence
jayessence
JayEssence
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 12:56 am (UTC)
Resources

I have to post some helpful resources:

http://www.circumcision.org/
http://www.jewishcircumcision.org/
http://www.nocirc.org/
http://www.intactamerica.org/
http://www.infocirc.org/
http://www.circumstitions.com/


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vorpal
vorpal
Sebastian (塞巴斯蒂安) / 饒漢文
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 01:55 am (UTC)
Re: Resources

Good stuff! I'm only familiar with about half these sites, so you've given me some great reading to do :D.


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bonoboboy
bonoboboy
Onion Monkey
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 12:58 am (UTC)

Now that I think about it, pretty much everyone I've been with who has had trouble cumming or keeping hard (on a regular basis) has been circumcised ...


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jayessence
jayessence
JayEssence
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 01:06 am (UTC)

Were you lucky enough to have escaped the knifes?


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gunblade_girl
gunblade_girl
Chananigans
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 01:37 am (UTC)

As a female I am incredibly strongly opposed to male genital mutilation, kthnx.

I love that your friends tend to feel the same way!


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gunblade_girl
gunblade_girl
Chananigans
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 01:41 am (UTC)

Though I guess I should add that I see a boatload of penis at work, and I've met a few uncut guys in their 70s-90s who have problems with their foreskins. One guy had to be circumcised at the age of 86 because it got so bad. That being said, I still wouldn't cut my children's genitals. I feel incredibly strongly about this.


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phillipalden
phillipalden
Phillip T. Alden
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 01:40 am (UTC)

I'm with you 100%.

When my sister was pregnant she asked me what I thought, and I told her more or less what you wrote. I was very happy when she followed my advice and left my baby nephew "unmutilated."


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sharpblonde
sharpblonde
sharpblonde
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 01:57 am (UTC)

Generally I agree with you. I think, ideally, even in religious situations boys shouldn't be circumcised, men should choose whether they want to be. However, I'm not honestly sure what I'd do if I ended up with someone who wanted to have it done to our kid for religious reasons. Then again, that's probably a moot point as in general the people I make the best connections with are atheist, agnostic, or pagan.... Definitely not a rule, but it's how things have chanced to happen.


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pagerbear
pagerbear
pagerbear
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 03:43 am (UTC)

I don't disagree with you at all about infant circumcision, but right or wrong, once it's done it's done. I have to wonder about men who become obsessed with mourning their lost foreskins. Even foreskin restoration seems a little weird to me, just another kind of self-mutilation like excessive tattoos or piercings or more extreme "modifications." YMMV, of course.

For the record, being born in 1962 to extremely white-bread Protestant American parents, I did not escape the knife. I'm still pretty fond of the penis I have.

Edited at 2010-05-05 03:43 am (UTC)


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hugh7
hugh7
Thu, May. 6th, 2010 03:02 am (UTC)

Do you think women who wear a prosthetic breast or have an implant after a mastectomy are "obsessed with mourning their lost breasts"? Foreskin restoration is much milder than an implant - it's just increasing the area of your own skin (but it can't replace the ~20,000 nerves).


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guardian1
EDTD
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 03:43 am (UTC)

We have a son (now growb( abd yes we gad himun circumcized shortly after birth not for religious
reasons (we'are not Jewish) but because our birth-doctor recommended it for long-term health reasons.
Maybe we should ask him what the effects have been over the years. I was circumcized as an adult because
I was getting infections down there and after the op I didn't have them anymore. So there you are.


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kishnevi
kishnevi
kishnevi
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 03:54 am (UTC)

I was circumcised according to the usual ritual, and frankly I don't have a problem with not having a foreskin. Naturally, I don't remember the procedure, much less the amount of pain involved. Frankly, the men I've noticed complaining about being "cut" (and are themselves circumcised) seem to fall into one of two groups:
1) Jewish men who have trouble with the concept "I am a Jew"
2) Men who feel sexually inadequate and link those feelings to their state of prepucelessness, rightly or wrongly.
Sometimes they fall into both groups, of course.


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leicesterstreet
leicesterstreet
under_appreciated
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 10:24 am (UTC)

Well I'm probably going to show my perhaps conservative views here. I think part of it is due to the fact that when I was growing up, most of the boys in school were circumcised where I was the odd one out, and to this day, I still find cut guys more attractive. I just make this point because my views may not be entirely objective. But here's my analysis:

- Circumcision, according to the World Health Organisation has some health benefits in preventing AIDS. There are also reduced rates of Penile Cancer.
- Circumcision, can prevent foreskin related problems (ie foreskin too tight when having an erection etc).
- More convenient to keep clean.

On the other hand:

- Circumcision, like any operation has risks.
- There may be some pain involved if no anaesthetic is used.
- The parent is essentially making a decision for the child, which the child may not agree with later that cannot be reversed.

I think it's too difficult, looking at the factors here, to impose a blanket ban, and the decision should rest with the parents in this case. If the child was "missing" out on something, or was somehow impaired from the operation as a general rule, I might consider differently. Otherwise, the physical effects are largely cosmetic.

As for your question, I don't really want kids to be honest, so that particular question is null and void for me.


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snokat
snokat
snokat
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 02:54 pm (UTC)

Wow, what an education with those user pics! Yikes! LOL.

Can you believe that I am over 40 and never been with any man who wasn't circumsized? Most men around my age were. So from the pictures I've seen...I think it's kinda ugly (not that that is the most "pretty" part of man anyway---well usually). Also I would be a bit concerned about cleanliness. I know that it takes more effort to keep that uncircumsized area clean. But, crap, most men never clean their bathtubs, so how do I trust that they are going to keep that area super clean?? (Joke!)

I don't think the process is exceptionally cruel. I don't believe that babies "remember" the pain (just being BORN can't be a joy ride) and if done in a hospital setting it shouldn't be painful either. Does it cut down on sensitivity? If most men I know were any MORE sensitive down there, they would be able to wear pants for having constant boners. (Joke again!) It became the standard for no other reason than it was the standard. Should they keep doing it? I don't really know. I know that if I ever had a boy, I'd be inclined to do it...but a lot of resistance from the father would sway me. So I'm on the fence.


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vorpal
vorpal
Sebastian (塞巴斯蒂安) / 饒漢文
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 03:40 pm (UTC)

So from the pictures I've seen...I think it's kinda ugly (not that that is the most "pretty" part of man anyway---well usually).

*grins*... It's what you're used to, really, I think. Had you, say, lived in Europe and slept exclusively with uncircumcised guys, I'd wager that you'd find circumcised cock to look mutilated and strange.

And I always find it interesting that women, generally, don't find penises attractive. As a gay guy, I find penises can be extremely attractive, and the attractiveness of my partner's penis is pretty important to me (if I don't find his hot, I probably wouldn't be able to date a guy).

I love the South Park episode "Eeek! A penis!" where there's a penis on the loose in town and every time it appears in a scene, the women jump up on the nearest table, chair, etc. like they're being confronted by a mouse and they start shrieking, "Eeeek! A penis!"

I find that that's a bit of an exaggeration, but true in the sense that women seem to "tolerate" penises, whereas gay men lust after them. I wonder if this has a lot to do with the fact that men seem to find arousal through visual cues, whereas many women seem instead to find their arousal through emotional ones.

Honestly, concern about cleanliness of uncircumcised penis is just buying into the propaganda: there is no reason to be concerned about cleanliness. It honestly takes no more than thirty seconds in the shower to ensure that everything is completely clean. This idea that cleaning an uncut penis is this laborious process that most men can't handle is completely freaking absurd and insulting, and again, part of the pro-circ propaganda that was really strong back in the 80s and 90s. If a guy has hygiene problems, they would first manifest in ways other than through his uncut dick.

I do disagree with you in that I think the process is cruel: just because a baby doesn't remember it doesn't mean that it isn't cruel. If I was to beat the snot out of someone with the guarantee that they wouldn't remember it, it doesn't void the cruelty of my actions.

There is some debate about the sensitivity issue, but generally I think the consensus is that it does cut down on sensitivity, which makes sense, because there are vast numbers of nerve endings in the foreskin. Most of the guys I know that are cut are less sensitive. For example, you couldn't rub the head of an uncut cock without lubricant, because it would likely be way too sensitive and painful. As an uncut guy, the idea of circumcised guys and their unprotected penis heads rubbing against the fabric of their clothes all day makes me cringe and shudder.

Sorry if I came across as uber serious and didn't laugh at your jokes... no offense intended! It's just that this issue is a sensitive one (LOL... okay... it's my turn for a joke - and a bad pun at that) to me, because before the tides started to turn, I faced a lot of anti-intact sentiment: I actually had a boyfriend tell me, at one point, that if we were to stay together for the long run, we could have my "problem fixed". *rolls eyes* It also gets old hearing all the time how people think it's unhygienic. I am quite clean, as is my penis, thank you very much :D. I am thrilled at being uncircumcised and wouldn't change that for a million dollars.

Thankfully now, opinions are changing, and it seems like gay guys have really started to develop a taste for uncut cock. Ten years ago, some guys wouldn't have touched an uncut dick with a ten foot pole (*resists the urge for another bad pun*), but these days, things have really shifted, and now you'd have a lineup for a chance to play with your uncut cock.

Anyways, regardless, as a surgery, it's unnecessary, and you're making a choice that can't be unmade. If I had a son and he wanted to get circumcised when he reached adulthood, I'd support him fully (provided he made an informed decision). At least then he has a choice in the matter.


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etre_moral
etre_moral
Blessings in disguise
Wed, May. 5th, 2010 04:02 pm (UTC)

I could not agree more.


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sarudesu
sarudesu
Sarudesu
Sat, May. 8th, 2010 11:24 am (UTC)

When lysander was born, I researched the pros and cons and from what I saw, There was NO WAY that I would let that doctor near lysander! I agree with waiting until he has an opinion. I mean, he has noticed the difference between his and his step dads, but neither negatively or positively. I hope people understand how brutal it is and stop doing it.


On a personal note thoiugh, a cut peen looks better.....


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gunblade_girl
gunblade_girl
Chananigans
Tue, May. 25th, 2010 03:02 am (UTC)

You should update! There are livejournal-less kids in India.


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vorpal
vorpal
Sebastian (塞巴斯蒂安) / 饒漢文
Tue, May. 25th, 2010 03:36 am (UTC)

Hahaha! ♥

It's getting late here, but I'll aim for an update tomorrow :D.

*much love*


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